Obama launches his major offensive against Hillary

reposted with permission by Geekesque, @ daily kos

Cross-posted at Talk Left.

Game on, folks.

While there's been some discussion about his nukes stand in the speech today, what's significant is that Barack Obama directed his fire directly at Hillary Clinton today.  

In very stark terms.  Drawing contrasts.

And he's not taking just her on.  He's taking the entire way of thinking that she represents on.

Details below.

First of all, it should be noted that today's date, October 2, 2002, is not coincidental.  This is the 5th anniversary of Obama's much-touted speech opposing the invasion of Iraq.  And he uses that date to drive home the big advantage he has over Senator Clinton--judgment.

You are students. And the great responsibility of students is to question the world around you, to question things that don't add up. With Iraq, we must ask the question: how did we go so wrong?

There are those who offer up easy answers. They will assert that Iraq is George Bush's war, it's all his fault. Or that Iraq was botched by the arrogance and incompetence of Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney. Or that we would have gotten Iraq right if we went in with more troops, or if we had a different proconsul instead of Paul Bremer, or if only there were a stronger Iraqi Prime Minister.

These are all challenges to Hillary, who has issued several of those statements, including the complaint about al-Maliki and the claim that this is George Bush's war.

These are the easy answers. And like most easy answers, they are partially true. But they don't tell the whole truth, because they overlook a harder and more fundamental truth. The hard truth is that the war in Iraq is not about a catalog of many mistakes - it is about one big mistake. The war in Iraq should never have been fought.

Damn straight.  Collective guilt is no excuse for individual sin.

But the conventional thinking in Washington has a way of buying into stories that make political sense even if they don't make practical sense. We were told that the only way to prevent Iraq from getting nuclear weapons was with military force. Some leading Democrats echoed the Administration's erroneous line that there was a connection between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda. We were counseled by some of the most experienced voices in Washington that the only way for Democrats to look tough was to talk, act and vote like a Republican.

The use of the word 'experienced' is not accidental.
But note, the indictment of Hillary is not that she is so much worse than everyone else in Washington.  Rather, it's that she's so typical of the Beltway echo-chamber.

Obama rattles off all the people who were complicit and failed the American people back in 2002-2003:

But it doesn't end there. Because the American people weren't just failed by a President - they were failed by much of Washington. By a media that too often reported spin instead of facts. By a foreign policy elite that largely boarded the bandwagon for war. And most of all by the majority of a Congress - a coequal branch of government - that voted to give the President the open-ended authority to wage war that he uses to this day. Let's be clear: without that vote, there would be no war.

Yes.  Congress handed the ball off to George W. Bush.  And once The Decider gets the ball and takes it into Iraq, it's harder than hell to get it back.

Some seek to rewrite history. They argue that they weren't really voting for war, they were voting for inspectors, or for diplomacy. But the Congress, the Administration, the media, and the American people all understood what we were debating in the fall of 2002. This was a vote about whether or not to go to war. That's the truth as we all understood it then, and as we need to understand it now.

That's exactly right.  Everyone knew that Bush had his heart set on war.

And we need to ask those who voted for the war: how can you give the President a blank check and then act surprised when he cashes it?

Again, the target here is clearly Hillary.  John Edwards doesn't pretend that he wasn't voting for war.  Hillary has slowly but surely backtracked to the point that one would think her vote was a vote for peace.

With all that we know about what's gone wrong in Iraq, even today's debate is divorced from reality. We've got a surge that is somehow declared a success even though it has failed to enable the political reconciliation that was its stated purpose. The fact that violence today is only as horrific as in 2006 is held up as progress. Washington politicians and pundits trip over each other to debate a newspaper advertisement while our troops fight and die in Iraq.

The big flap over the Moveon ad is inded proof that Washington is still broken and populated by idiots.

And the conventional thinking today is just as entrenched as it was in 2002. This is the conventional thinking that measures experience only by the years you've been in Washington, not by your time spent serving in the wider world. This is the conventional thinking that has turned against the war, but not against the habits that got us into the war in the first place - the outdated assumptions and the refusal to talk openly to the American people.

Exactly.  How can we complain about the tragically disastrous and morally bankrupt Washington establishment thinking and then vote to keep that Washington establishment in power?

Well I'm not running for President to conform to Washington's conventional thinking - I'm running to challenge it. I'm not running to join the kind of Washington groupthink that led us to war in Iraq - I'm running to change our politics and our policy so we can leave the world a better place than our generation has found it.

He's taking on the establishment, the Very Serious People.  He's not just taking Hillary Clinton on.  He's taking her machine on.

So there is a choice that has emerged in this campaign, one that the American people need to understand. They should ask themselves: who got the single most important foreign policy decision since the end of the Cold War right, and who got it wrong. This is not just a matter of debating the past. It's about who has the best judgment to make the critical decisions of the future. Because you might think that Washington would learn from Iraq. But we've seen in this campaign just how bent out of shape Washington gets when you challenge its assumptions.

This is a charge that Hillary can only hope to deflect, not take on directly.  He got the big question right, and she got it wrong.

We need to question the world around us. When we have a debate about experience, we can't just debate who has the most experience scoring political points. When we have a debate about experience, we can't just talk about who fought yesterday's battles - we have to focus on who can face the challenges and seize the opportunities of tomorrow. Because no matter what we think about George Bush, he's going to be gone in January 2009. He's not on the ballot. This election is about ending the Iraq War, but even more it's about moving beyond it. And we're not going be safe in a world of unconventional threats with the same old conventional thinking that got us into Iraq. We're not going to unify a divided America to confront these threats with the same old conventional politics of just trying to beat the other side.

He's pointing out that change from George W. Bush is not enough.  George W. Bush is not on the ticket.  He is not the issue.  

And here it is folks:

In 2009, we will have a window of opportunity to renew our global leadership and bring our nation together. If we don't seize that moment, we may not get another. This election is a turning point. The American people get to decide: are we going to turn back the clock, or turn the page?

My line!!!

And he is exactly right.  We either change our party and our nation dramatically now, or wait at least a decade and maybe two before we get another chance.

I want to be straight with you. If you want conventional Washington thinking, I'm not your man. If you want rigid ideology, I'm not your man. If you think that fundamental change can wait, I'm definitely not your man. But if you want to bring this country together, if you want experience that's broader than just learning the ways of Washington, if you think that the global challenges we face are too urgent to wait, and if you think that America must offer the world a new and hopeful face, then I offer a different choice in this race and a different vision for our future.

The Democratic party has a choice.  The stakes are clear.  The positions are clear.  Status quo thinking rejects the idea of Barack Obama's candidacy.

I'll conclude this diary by noting his language on Iraq:

The first thing we have to do is end this war. And the right person to end it is someone who had the judgment to oppose it from the beginning. There is no military solution in Iraq, and there never was. I will begin to remove our troops from Iraq immediately. I will remove one or two brigades a month, and get all of our combat troops out of Iraq within 16 months. The only troops I will keep in Iraq will perform the limited missions of protecting our diplomats and carrying out targeted strikes on al Qaeda. And I will launch the diplomatic and humanitarian initiatives that are so badly needed. Let there be no doubt: I will end this war.

No training troops for the Iraq military.  He had before said that he would include trainers if the Iraqi security forces got their act together, which translates to "off theh table."  You're probably looking at under 10,000 troops under an Obama administration by 2013.  Maybe none.

Full text here.

For a take on other elements, see this diary.

Permission granted to reproduce this diary is freely granted so long as proper credit is attributed



Display:


laughable (none / 0)

I hope he won't become an angry bitter man in the end. He's surrounded by such crowd so I'm not holding my breath.


Dodd put out a press release just now wishing Obama a "Happy (Belated) Anniversary:"

Today, the Obama campaign is celebrating the 5th anniversary of the speech that then-State Senator Barack Obama gave opposing the invasion of Iraq. But unfortunately, they forgot to celebrate another anniversary. July 26th marked the 3rd anniversary of the New York Times story in which Obama admitted that he did not know how he would have voted on the Iraq resolution had he been serving in the United States Senate at the time of the vote.


Hillary: We will finally have a president who doesn't mind pulling over and asking for directions. Am I right, ladies?
by areyouready on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 04:16:36 PM EST

Re: laughable (none / 0)

and your grapes are so sour, I smell them all the way to my desk.  And sorry, judgment does matter, ask Bill Clinton.


by iamready on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 04:18:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: laughable (none / 0)

cankles. LOL. Good luck.


Hillary: We will finally have a president who doesn't mind pulling over and asking for directions. Am I right, ladies?
by areyouready on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 04:18:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: laughable (none / 0)

You have cankles?  Well admitting it is the first step toward recovery.  


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 05:00:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: laughable (none / 0)

Barack Obama is not a leader.  Clinton will slap him down again.

John Edwards is the only chance to defeat Clinton.


by TomP on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 04:31:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: laughable (none / 0)

Tom, Clinton will slap them both down.  :-)


by georgep on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 05:07:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: laughable (none / 0)

Not likely.  She hasn't managed to slap Edwards down yet and she tried a couple of times.


I am an Edwards Democrat. Visit EENR blog for Progressives
by pioneer111 on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 08:52:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Chris Dodd with a high hard one. (none / 0)

I like both Dodd and Biden.


by dpANDREWS on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 04:30:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Chris Dodd with a high hard one. (none / 0)

It just show how strong the field is by have those two in the second tier. Based on their experience and expertise both of them could have been the frontrunner in a normal election.

I've got a lot of respect for both of them.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 04:21:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Blockquote with link that works (2.00 / 1)

In a recent interview, he declined to criticize Senators Kerry and Edwards for voting to authorize the war, although he said he would not have done the same based on the information he had at the time. 'But, I'm not privy to Senate intelligence reports,' Mr. Obama said. 'What would I have done? I don't know. What I know is that from my vantage point the case was not made.'" [NYT, 7/26/04]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/10/02 /obama-says-he-made-04-ir_n_66838.html

Draw your own conclusions. I just remember what "they" did to Natalie Maines (Dixie Chicks.) What Obama said in 2002 demonstrated the courage of his own convictions.


Dare to be free.
by misscee on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 07:18:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Unelectable (1.50 / 2)

Anybody thinks this guy is electable is just delusional. LOL.


Hillary: We will finally have a president who doesn't mind pulling over and asking for directions. Am I right, ladies?
by areyouready on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 04:18:03 PM EST

Re: Unelectable (none / 0)

Wow, why such the vitriol in response.  It is just a speech, and a poignant one at that.


by iamready on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 04:20:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unelectable (none / 0)

No. I'm not vitriolic at all. I just found it's amusing. He needs to find a good strategy fast. Howard Dean could not gain any traction by repeating those lines five years ago, how can you expect Obama to gain traction five years later?

I actually wish him to go nuclear. It will certainly satisfy the desire of his rabid online supporters, but will probably destroy him in the end.


Hillary: We will finally have a president who doesn't mind pulling over and asking for directions. Am I right, ladies?
by areyouready on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 04:23:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unelectable (1.33 / 3)

He needs to fire moustache Lexord and find a good strategist fast.

Anyway, this is my final word to this diary. What a waste.


Hillary: We will finally have a president who doesn't mind pulling over and asking for directions. Am I right, ladies?
by areyouready on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 04:24:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Im sure we'll miss you (none / 0)


by faithfull on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 04:30:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unelectable (none / 0)

You are right... you are a waste.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 05:01:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unelectable (none / 0)

Would you mind expanding on your assertion so that those that disagree with you have something to work with besides your subjective opinion?  Given Obama's performance in the campaign so far I would have thought that subject was arguably already disproved.  Any further thoughts on the subject or was that just a throw-away line?


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 08:03:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nothing new my mind and not all that tough (none / 0)

When I first read what you posted, I really expected that Obama had come off the sidelines and took Clinton on in a new way.

Then I read your dairy and realized it was the same stuff we've heard since March.

He is uncomfortable calling Clinton out by name.  He isn't offering anything new.  

We have all heard the "I opposed this war from the beginning" thing 1,000,000 times.  We heard the spin from his campaign that he is "different" 1,000,000 times.  It has him where he is in the polls today.  Repackaging it isn't going to help in my mind.

Obama has to make a decision.  He is happy playing on the JV or is he ready to try out for the varsity.


by dpANDREWS on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 04:22:16 PM EST

I think he is playing for '12, or '16 (none / 0)

Lets look at facts.

He is running a safe, polite campaign.  Similar to Edwards in '04.

He is spending a lot of time and money targeting a voter segment that isn't going to help him win the primary.  But will be very helpful to him 4 or 8 years down the road, when they can afford to write $200, or $2000, instead of $20 dollar checks.


by dpANDREWS on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 04:37:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i agree... (none / 0)


"I believe he can win. If he runs a campaign anywhere like the terrific campaign he ran to get the nomination, he'll win handily." - Ed Rendell
by bored now on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 09:42:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nothing new my mind and not all that tough (2.00 / 1)

Yeah, I'm not particularly open to being persuaded but I always hope for a stronger speech from Obama. He has to do a better job translating his 2002 judgment into a meaningful difference with Clinton over how to lead the country in 2009. The forward looking aspects of the speech are indistinguishable from what any Democratic candidate would say. Nice effort by Geekesque, but it is never good when you have to fisk your candidate's speech to give it punch.

Less then twelve weeks left (skipping the holidays) and I think Clinton fund raising dominates this week. Can Obama get a hit next week?


by souvarine on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 04:39:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

talking about blank checks (2.00 / 1)

would be more effective if Obama had voted against more of the Iraq funding bills than Hillary. Since he was elected to the Senate, however, he and Hillary have voted the same way on every Iraq war supplemental. I believe Obama missed opportunities to draw a line between himself and Hillary when it comes to giving Bush blank checks.

I hear some undecided Democrats talking about various plans for getting us out of Iraq (Biden, Richardson). I think Obama would do well to stress why he would be the best person to get us out, or would get us out in the best way.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 04:32:49 PM EST

Re: talking about blank checks (none / 0)

his speech was about do you want the same washington thinking or are we as a country ready to move on.  that is the crux of this speech, and the line that will be touted on MSM.


by iamready on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 04:52:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: talking about blank checks (none / 0)

I agree,it's time to move forward and leave the Clintons in the 90's with all of there baggage.


by redtime12 on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 06:32:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

yeah sure (none / 0)

they love to discuss criticism of themselves...


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 07:33:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: talking about blank checks (none / 0)

Obama's speech is good but limited.  He points out the problem but never connects the dots as to why he is the solution.

He states he is the solution, but he does not demonstrate it. That is what Edwards does clearly.

Edwards has laid the ground work to differentiate himself from Clinton and Obama.

This speech told the truth, but I am left with a "so what".  That does not inspire.  


I am an Edwards Democrat. Visit EENR blog for Progressives
by pioneer111 on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 08:59:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: talking about blank checks (none / 0)

True, for somebody who made his (right) position on the war a real focus point of his campaign it's a real weakness that he's gettting passed on his left (Dodd, Richardson) and right (Biden) side on the actual solution.

If he'll adress that he'll be in a far stronger situation then he is now.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 04:29:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama launches his major offensive ... (none / 0)

On Obama's Iraq offensive:

I was hoping to see something new about Obama's Iraq position from your diary but I haven't found any.

From your diary, his Iraq position:

The first thing we have to do is end this war. And the right person to end it is someone who had the judgment to oppose it from the beginning. There is no military solution in Iraq, and there never was. I will begin to remove our troops from Iraq immediately. I will remove one or two brigades a month, and get all of our combat troops out of Iraq within 16 months. The only troops I will keep in Iraq will perform the limited missions of protecting our diplomats and carrying out targeted strikes on al Qaeda. And I will launch the diplomatic and humanitarian initiatives that are so badly needed. Let there be no doubt: I will end this war.

This is indistinguishable from Hillary's and Edwards' positions.

In my opinion, the problem with Obama is that he is promising change and a new direction.  But the positions that he has flashed out thus far -- foreign policy, health care, fiscal policy, etc -- do not show much novelty.  He promised a new politics of Hope but his campaign is the most negative of all.  There is a big disconnect between his words and his actual actions. Voters want to see more evidence of the kind of "change" and "hope" that he promises.

On Obama's "Judgement" offensive:

In my opinion, Obama's "judgement" claim is also tenuous since he wasn't in the Senate to vote for it.  

In an interview with The New York Times in July 2004, he said "I'm not privy to the Senate intelligence reports. What would I have done? I don't know."

The following is a good example of the difference between saying something in a speech and actual voting on an issue.

Mr. Obama's criticism of the war led him to say, in 2003, that he would have opposed the $87 billion emergency spending bill for Iraq and Afghanistan. Once elected to the Senate in 2004, however, Mr. Obama voted in favor of spending bills for the Iraq military campaign and the troops there.

An Obama spokesman said that Mr. Obama's only problem with the $87 billion bill was the roughly $20 billion part for reconstruction and no-bid contracts. But the subsequent spending bills Mr. Obama voted for also included similar allocations.

I suspect that the majority of voters feel the same way as I do -- that his "judgement" argument is tenuous.  I also suspect that despite all the drumbeats by Hillary's opponents blaming her for the war vote, the majority of the voters don't blame her for it. She wouldn't have taken us to war if she were the President. They correctly blame the Bush administration for the war.  They do not appreciate obama's blaming the Democrats for the war.  These may very well be the reasons why Obama's "judgement" strategy hasn't worked and is unlikely to work in the future.


by Hurdy Gurdy on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 05:08:18 PM EST

Re: Obama launches his major offensive ... (none / 0)

I suspect that the majority of voters feel the same way as I do -- that his "judgement" argument is tenuous.  I also suspect that despite all the drumbeats by Hillary's opponents blaming her for the war vote, the majority of the voters don't blame her for it.

That is her major problem in Iowa.  The Iraq War.  This was even said on This Week with George S. by Donna Brazile.  Hence, why she is looking for a new Field Ops in IA.

Obama is challenging Americans to either "turn back the clock" or "turn the page".  That is the difference.


by iamready on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 05:41:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama launches his major offensive ... (none / 0)

Hillary is doing well in Iowa, in my opinion.

Electing Hillary would be a major turning of the page in all areas -- foreign policy, health care, fiscal policy, energy, education, science, supreme court, infrastructure, New Orleans and many others. Last but not least, electing a woman President would by itself be a major turning of the page.

To me, the turning of the page has begun with Bill Clinton.  We're supposed to cross the bridge to the 21st century but the crossing of the bridge was arrested by the Bush administration.  Al Gore was supposed to lead us but unfortunately he couldn't.  I believe with all my heart that Hillary Clinton will be able to lead us in crossing this bridge to the 21st century!  :)


by Hurdy Gurdy on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 06:01:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama launches his major offensive ... (2.00 / 2)

> "Electing Hillary would be a major turning of the page in all areas -- foreign policy.."

This is truly laughable.


  • Hillary Clinton, as recent as earlier this year, used Sept. 11 as a phony (dishonest) justification for her support of the Iraq War. For 5 whole years, she parrotted Dick-Cheney-approved talking-points about Iraq.
  • She has also said, until just very recently, that "Torture is sometimes necessary".
  • She even voted against a weapons ban on illegal, civilian-killing Cluster Bombs!
  • And just recently she happily signed-on to the Joe Lieberman vision of fraud to justify a Military attack on Iran.

Hillary Clinton has represented nothing but the status-quo
(the dishonest, NeoCon status-quo) when it comes to foreign policy.

You are correct that we need to turn the page.

But this Bush-Cheney enabler and happy War-propagandist (Clinton), is not the "fix" here!
Her U.S. Senator track record is the what got us into these tragedies and made the Democratic Party voiceless facilitators and totally ineffectual for 7 long years of hell!

How can the enablers ... now be the "heroes"??



For a "surge" in Truth:  Say NO to NeoCons!!!
by DerekLarsson on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 06:20:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama launches his major offensive ... (none / 0)

All the falsehood and unsubstantiated lies spewed by you and a small minority of Hillary haters haven't worked as you've hoped, has it?

The truth will always prevail, my dear friend.

Hillary and her supporters will have the last laugh!  :)


by Hurdy Gurdy on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 06:33:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama launches his major offensive ... (2.00 / 1)

You can have her,a person who can't take a political stand on anything.A person who's scared she may offend someone,so she just tap dances all over the place.Yeah that's great leadership.


by redtime12 on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 06:46:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama launches his major offensive ... (none / 0)

The fact that her voting record is more progressive than Edwards is proof enough for me that she takes a more courageous political stand than Edwards.

Even though her voting record is identical to Obama's, the fact that Obama kept skipping difficult votes is a proof to me that Hillary is more courageous.  I can't recall any vote that Obama and Edward have taken that can be deemed as more courageous than Hillary.


by Hurdy Gurdy on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 06:58:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama launches his major offensive ... (none / 0)

And she doesn't answer questions, which ppl at my job picked up on who watched the Debate on Wednesday.


by iamready on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 07:17:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Tim Russert aint God ya know (none / 0)

if he asks a gotcha question - she and all Dems should respond with a FU.

But at least your co workers have bought the media message from that eve.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 07:36:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama launches his major offensive ... (none / 0)


Nope, not lies.
Her NeoCon U.S. Senate record is there plain as the nose on her face for all to see.

Now there's something to laugh about ... make that cry about!  



For a "surge" in Truth:  Say NO to NeoCons!!!
by DerekLarsson on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 06:50:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama launches his major offensive ... (2.00 / 1)

Exactly!  Her voting record is proof.  Her voting record is more progressive than Edwards and is identical to Obama's. I strongly suggest your reading Alegre's post today at myDD for Hillary's record.

Link

Edwards wrote and co-sponsored the Iraq war authorization bill and he voted no to Byrd's amendment, which would have limited the authorization to only 1 year.  Hillary voted yes to the Byrd's amendment.

More proof that Hillary never supported the war:

JANUARY 2003: HILLARY SENDS LETTER TO POWELL, URGES HIM TO CONTINUE ROBUST INSPECTIONS: "If our words about supporting UN inspectors have any meaning and if we truly want the United Nations to be effective, we must act to support the UN arms inspectors and act to unite the UN Security Council behind the use of U2 aircraft in Iraq...Additionally if we are truly serious about supporting the UN inspections we should increase our intelligence support to the inspectors." [Letter to Colin Powell, 1/31/03]

MARCH 2003: HILLARY URGES 'PEACEFUL SOLUTION,' PUSHES BUSH TO 'ENLIST MORE SUPPORT' FROM ALLIES: "'It is preferable that we do this in a peaceful manner through coercive inspection'...[T]he senator said the Bush administration still had work to do at convincing the American public and the rest of the world that Hussein presented a real threat that might require military action. 'The administration should continue to try to enlist more support,' she added." [AP, 3/3/03]

DECEMBER 2003: HILLARY SAYS WAR IS BEING RUN BY 'POORLY PREPARED PEOPLE' WHO ARE 'OBSESSED WITH IRAQ': "As a result, we are living with the consequences of refusing to admit the size of this undertaking. I've said on many occasions that it is bewildering to me how this administration, which is run by people who've been obsessed with Iraq and Saddam Hussein since the first Gulf War, could be so poorly prepared once the military success was assured." [Press Conference With Jack Reed, 12/1/03]

DECEMBER 2003: HILLARY SAYS BUSH HAS 'NOT LEVELED WITH THE AMERICAN PEOPLE' FROM 'THE VERY BEGINNING': "I think that the administration has from the very beginning not leveled with the American people. There is no doubt that we have seen a rather disastrous aftermath of the military action." [Meet the Press, 12/7/03]

DECEMBER 2003: HILLARY SAYS BUSH'S 'HAPPY TALK' IS 'NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR POLICY': "I think that one of the missing elements in our strategy thus far has been the president and the administration leveling with the American people about what it is we're up against, how long it's going to take, how much it's going to cost...No reasonable person looking at the facts can't see that there are some real problems that we have to deal with. I don't think happy talk, you know, is a substitute for a policy." [Face the Nation, 12/7/03]

DECEMBER 2003: HILLARY SLAMS BUSH FOR 'MISCALCULATION' AND 'INEPT PLANNING': "So, there was a lot of miscalculation and, and, frankly, inept planning that we're now living with the consequences. I regret the way the president has used the authority. I mean, it's one thing to say, you know, we're heading down a road that is rooted in the values and ideals and practicalities of what got us to this point, looking back at previous administrations, and there was an expectation about how that authority would be used, which, you know, frankly, I'm, you know, disappointed that it wasn't." [This Week, 12/7/03]

OCTOBER 2003: HILLARY ASSERTS THAT THE ADMINISTRATION 'GILDED THE LILY' ON IRAQ WAR INTELLIGENCE: "Nevertheless, I think it is clear, and it is not just a mistake, it is not just a wrong assessment--I think now it is clear that, for a combination of reasons, the administration gilded the lily, engaged in hyperbole, took whatever small nugget of intelligence that existed and blew it up into a mountain, in order, I suppose, to make the case more strongly and convincingly to the American people. But at what a cost? The cost of our credibility, the cost of our national leadership, and even more so the cost of perhaps not being able to take actions in the future that are necessary to our well-being and our interests because we may look like the nation or at least the administration that cried wolf. It is a big price to pay." [Floor Speech, 10/17/03]


by Hurdy Gurdy on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 07:10:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama launches his major offensive ... (2.00 / 1)


1. She voted for the Iraq War Resolution

2. She voted for Lieberman-Kyl

3. She opposed a ban on the use of illegal, civilian-killing cluster bombs (WMD) by the U.S.

4. She voted for the Orwellian U.S. Patriot Act twice

5. She refused to talk to Cindy Sheehan whose son was needlessly killed in the War that Clinton helped facilitate.

6. She didn't even do her job and read the full, unedited, U.S. Intelligence report on Iran (only the dishonest, cherry-picked, executive summary report that was vetted by the White House).

Let's get real.
Talk is cheap.
The votes are there for all to see!



For a "surge" in Truth:  Say NO to NeoCons!!!
by DerekLarsson on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 09:16:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama launches his major offensive ... (none / 0)

She refused to talk to Cindy Sheehan whose son was needlessly killed in the War that Clinton helped facilitate.

Now you're telling absolute lies.  Hillary Clinton met with Cindy Sheehan in 2005.  Would you like to continue making things up?


Yes, I am a Clintonista for Obama.
by Denny Crane on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 11:52:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama launches his major offensive ... (2.00 / 1)

I pesonally believe that her Iraq war vote, as she had explained in her floor speech prior to the vote, was not for a vote for preemptive war against Iraq.  It was to force inspection upon Saddam.  Her vote for the Byrd amendment and my post above that you responded to provided ample proof that she did not support a pre-emtive war against Iraq.  In an interview with The New York Times in July 2004, Obama said "I'm not privy to the Senate intelligence reports. What would I have done? I don't know."  Thus, he really cannot claim that he would have voted NAY. The majority of voters don't blame Hillary for her vote. She wouldn't have taken us to war if she were the President. They correctly blame the Bush administration for the war.  They do not appreciate obama's blaming the Democrats for the war.

Lieberman-Kyl vote wasn't a vote for war with Iran.  To saythat this is a vote for war with Iran is a blatant lie.  It was a vote for dealing with Iran by means other than war, such as sanctions.  Her co-sponsoring of the Webb's amendment attests to this fact.  Obama co-sponsored the exact same amendment in February.  I believe that if he were present for the Lieberman-Kyl vote, he would have voted YEA.

Edwards, Biden and Dodd also voted for the first Patriot Act.  Obama was not yet a Senator for the 1st Patriot Act vote but he voted for the reauthorization bill in 2006.  Feingold was the only Senator that voted against the first Patriot Act.  Obama, Biden, Dodd voted YEA for the Patriot Act reauthorization bill HR3199.  Why do you attack only Hillary for her vote when Obama, Edwards, Biden and Dodd also voted the same way?  Is it because she is a woman?

It is not true that she refused to talk to Cindy Sheehan.  I specifically remembered Cindy posting a diary at DailyKos describing her meeting with Hillary.

I don't understand your point #6.  Intelligence report on Iran?  Could you please provide a link?

In conclusion, Obama, Edwards, Biden and Dodd have voted the same way as Hillary when they were present for the votes.  It is simply wrong to be against Hillary and not Obama and Edwards when they voted the same way.


by Hurdy Gurdy on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 12:13:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

i'd be more concerned if i thought you were right. (none / 0)

she made a political calculation, not just for his future, but also for her state (new yorkers were outraged at 9-11 and would have agreed to invade any country hinted at involvement in that attack).

the problem is that she continues to make bad political calculations.  she didn't let the public into her health care hearings.  she hid her billing records that were under subpoena.  she voted to invade iraq.  she backs the bush doctrine and defends the presidential prerogative.  bad judgment repeated over and over...


"I believe he can win. If he runs a campaign anywhere like the terrific campaign he ran to get the nomination, he'll win handily." - Ed Rendell
by bored now on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 08:58:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i'd be more concerned if i thought ... (none / 0)

You wrote "she didn't let the public into her health care hearings."

"It is very sad that you're blaming Hillary for the failure of the Health Care Reform in 1993.  I suggets that you read the following article:

The HillaryCare Mythology

You wrote "she hid her billing records that were under subpoena."

She has every right to protect herself against the witch hunt against her and Bill Clinton by the vast right wing conspiracy.  After spendig gazillion amount of taxpayers' money, the vast army of investigators and special prosecutors couldn't find anything wrong with the Clintons' finances.  I strongly suggest that you read the following book.

The Hunting of the President: The Ten-Year Campaign to Destroy Bill and Hillary Clinton

There is no doubt that the vast right wing conspirators will tear into Obama regarding his Rezko connection should he be nominated.  They have already hurled a corruption charge against him.  Patrick Fitzgerald's United States Federal Prosecutor Office for Illinois has filed a 65 page indictment of Antoin "Tony" Rezko . The trial has been scheduled for February 25, 2008 by U.S. District Judge Amy St. Eve. Judge Eve called the trial date of Febuary 25, 2008 a firm date. The trial preparations and news will coincide with the first Democratic Primaries and Caucuses in January and February 2008. The headlines are sure to draw attention to Obama's shady deals with Rezko in the purchase of Obama's $1.65 million house.

Sadly, nobody has a perfect record in judement.  Obama did not have good judgement in his dealings with Tony Rezko.

You wrote "she voted to invade iraq."

Apparently you haven't read my post that you responded to.  I will therefore repeat again just for you.  I pesonally believe that her Iraq war vote, as she had explained in her floor speech prior to the vote, was not for a vote for preemptive war against Iraq.  It was to force inspection upon Saddam.  Her vote for the Byrd amendment and my post above that you responded to provided ample proof that she did not support a pre-emtive war against Iraq.  In an interview with The New York Times in July 2004, Obama said "I'm not privy to the Senate intelligence reports. What would I have done? I don't know."  Thus, he really cannot claim that he would have voted NAY. The majority of voters don't blame Hillary for her vote. She wouldn't have taken us to war if she were the President. They correctly blame the Bush administration for the war.  They do not appreciate obama's blaming the Democrats for the war.

You wrote "she backs the bush doctrine and defends the presidential prerogative."

She definitely did not back the bush doctrine and defends the presidential prerogative.  The following are proofs.

JANUARY 2003: HILLARY SENDS LETTER TO POWELL, URGES HIM TO CONTINUE ROBUST INSPECTIONS: "If our words about supporting UN inspectors have any meaning and if we truly want the United Nations to be effective, we must act to support the UN arms inspectors and act to unite the UN Security Council behind the use of U2 aircraft in Iraq...Additionally if we are truly serious about supporting the UN inspections we should increase our intelligence support to the inspectors." [Letter to Colin Powell, 1/31/03]

MARCH 2003: HILLARY URGES 'PEACEFUL SOLUTION,' PUSHES BUSH TO 'ENLIST MORE SUPPORT' FROM ALLIES: "'It is preferable that we do this in a peaceful manner through coercive inspection'...[T]he senator said the Bush administration still had work to do at convincing the American public and the rest of the world that Hussein presented a real threat that might require military action. 'The administration should continue to try to enlist more support,' she added." [AP, 3/3/03]

DECEMBER 2003: HILLARY SAYS WAR IS BEING RUN BY 'POORLY PREPARED PEOPLE' WHO ARE 'OBSESSED WITH IRAQ': "As a result, we are living with the consequences of refusing to admit the size of this undertaking. I've said on many occasions that it is bewildering to me how this administration, which is run by people who've been obsessed with Iraq and Saddam Hussein since the first Gulf War, could be so poorly prepared once the military success was assured." [Press Conference With Jack Reed, 12/1/03]

DECEMBER 2003: HILLARY SAYS BUSH HAS 'NOT LEVELED WITH THE AMERICAN PEOPLE' FROM 'THE VERY BEGINNING': "I think that the administration has from the very beginning not leveled with the American people. There is no doubt that we have seen a rather disastrous aftermath of the military action." [Meet the Press, 12/7/03]

DECEMBER 2003: HILLARY SAYS BUSH'S 'HAPPY TALK' IS 'NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR POLICY': "I think that one of the missing elements in our strategy thus far has been the president and the administration leveling with the American people about what it is we're up against, how long it's going to take, how much it's going to cost...No reasonable person looking at the facts can't see that there are some real problems that we have to deal with. I don't think happy talk, you know, is a substitute for a policy." [Face the Nation, 12/7/03]

DECEMBER 2003: HILLARY SLAMS BUSH FOR 'MISCALCULATION' AND 'INEPT PLANNING': "So, there was a lot of miscalculation and, and, frankly, inept planning that we're now living with the consequences. I regret the way the president has used the authority. I mean, it's one thing to say, you know, we're heading down a road that is rooted in the values and ideals and practicalities of what got us to this point, looking back at previous administrations, and there was an expectation about how that authority would be used, which, you know, frankly, I'm, you know, disappointed that it wasn't." [This Week, 12/7/03]

OCTOBER 2003: HILLARY ASSERTS THAT THE ADMINISTRATION 'GILDED THE LILY' ON IRAQ WAR INTELLIGENCE: "Nevertheless, I think it is clear, and it is not just a mistake, it is not just a wrong assessment--I think now it is clear that, for a combination of reasons, the administration gilded the lily, engaged in hyperbole, took whatever small nugget of intelligence that existed and blew it up into a mountain, in order, I suppose, to make the case more strongly and convincingly to the American people. But at what a cost? The cost of our credibility, the cost of our national leadership, and even more so the cost of perhaps not being able to take actions in the future that are necessary to our well-being and our interests because we may look like the nation or at least the administration that cried wolf. It is a big price to pay." [Floor Speech, 10/17/03]


by Hurdy Gurdy on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 09:56:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i'd be more concerned if i thought ... (none / 0)

Then how come she didn't read anything more than the executive summary of the NIE or vote for the Levin amendment?  Everything you posted about her actions after February 2003 is virtually meaningless relative to her AUMF vote.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 10:00:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i'd be more concerned if i thought ... (none / 0)

I have said that it is my personal opinion.  I'm not forcing my personal beliefs upon anybody here.  I thought that this blog is a place that one may express one's personal opinions.  I have hence expressed my personal opnion.  You do not have to agree with my personal opinion.  You are entitled to your opinion, always.  This is a free country.


by Hurdy Gurdy on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 10:13:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i'd be more concerned if i thought ... (none / 0)

Sure.  I was referring to your citations.  And you didn't answer the question, either.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 10:22:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i'd be more concerned if i thought ... (none / 0)

It is my personal opinion that the citations provided evidence that she did not back the bush doctrine and did not defend the presidential prerogative that bored one was charging against Hillary.  It appeared to me that the opposite is more likely to be true.


by Hurdy Gurdy on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 10:28:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i'd be more concerned if i thought ... (none / 0)

As you say you are entitled to your opinion, I was just trying to point out the relative merits of those post AUMF actions in comparison to her vote, which actually enabled the war.  Suit yourself on these points.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 10:35:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i'd be more concerned if i thought ... (none / 0)

Edwards, Biden and Dodd also voted for AUMF. In an interview with The New York Times in July 2004, Obama said "I'm not privy to the Senate intelligence reports. What would I have done? I don't know."  Thus, he really cannot claim that he would have voted NAY.  If you really want a Presidential candidate that had voted against AUMF, you would have to pick Kucinich.  I love Kucinich.  I just don't think that he can win. But if you feel this strongly about AUMF vote, he IS the candidate for you.

Even if all the Democrats have voted NAY, there wouldn't be enough votes to prevent the passage of AUMF. The majority of voters don't blame Hillary, Edwards, Kerry, Biden and Dodd for their AUMF votes. These Democrats wouldn't have taken us to war if they were the President. The voters correctly blame the Bush administration for the war.  They do not appreciate obama's blaming the Democrats for the war.


by Hurdy Gurdy on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 10:53:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i'd be more concerned if i thought ... (none / 0)

Twenty-six senators voted against it.  It stands as fact.  And you are being just as disingenuous in asserting that his truthful answer disqualifies Obama as an opponent.  How could he possibly have answered that question truthfully any other way?

No, you can't explain that vote away so easily, as much as you would like to, it seems.  If you were among those who were unsure or deferred your better judgement at the time, as they did, perhaps absolving them feels right.  I wouldn't know.  Without the AUMF there would have been no war, it's that simple.  Yeah, Bush's war, all right.  With a 70% approval rating at the time.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 11:07:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i'd be more concerned if i thought ... (none / 0)

I'm not explaining away anything.  It's my PERSONAL opinion.  It's a free country.  I'm entitled to my opinion.


by Hurdy Gurdy on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 11:14:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i'd be more concerned if i thought ... (none / 0)

Sure.  Me too.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 11:15:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i'd be more concerned if i thought ... (none / 0)

i was referring to hillary's decision to contest a lawsuit asking for public access to government hearings -- something that most democrats support (we want greater transparency, not less).  whether or not hillary is to blame for the failure of the health care proposal is something that i think most voters have already decided.

if you want to defend hillary's exception to the rule of law, that's your prerogative.  i obviously believe that the rule of law is more important and that no individual should be exempt (even the president or his spouse).  i completely agree that the right has an obsession with hillary, which i think is why people don't support her (why go through that again?) -- so it cuts both ways.

as i've said before, i don't think inferring that hillary is an idiot helps her cause much.  if she did believe that she wasn't voting to invade iraq, then not only is she our dumbest senator, but she's probably the dumbest person in america.  she, alone, would have understood her vote that way.

my comments about her defense of the bush doctrine and presidential prerogatives were not derived from her vote to invade iraq (even if she was so stupid that she didn't understand her vote that way).  since my understanding of this is not derived from her public comments, but things she's said at both party events and private conversations, you'll understand why we disagree.  you can believe what you want -- believing what you want to believe is a common characteristic of hillary supporters here (they are not alone, though) -- but my training forces me to be more objective about what i presume to be true...


"I believe he can win. If he runs a campaign anywhere like the terrific campaign he ran to get the nomination, he'll win handily." - Ed Rendell
by bored now on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 11:16:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama launches his major offensive ... (none / 0)

And if you want the DLC?  Which real progressives don't?  She's your girl!!!!


by iamready on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 07:16:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama launches his major offensive ... (none / 0)

DLC is not my enemy.  DLC is part of the Dem family.  I wouldn't cut my nose to spite my face.  I believe in a big tent Democratic Party -- united we win, divided we lose.  

I'm sure Obama and Edwards would agree with me on this point.


by Hurdy Gurdy on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 07:22:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama launches his major offensive ... (none / 0)


The DLC is bullshit and everyone knows it.

They have tried to muzzle the Democratic Party, convert them into voiceless sheep, and get them to go along with most incideous policies that have completely ruined this Nation!

The DLC is not progressive one damn bit.



For a "surge" in Truth:  Say NO to NeoCons!!!
by DerekLarsson on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 09:19:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama launches his major offensive ... (none / 0)

It is a lie to say that "DLC have tried to muzzle the Democratic Party, convert them into voiceless sheep, and get them to go along with most incideous policies that have completely ruined this Nation!"  

DLC is not the left wing of the Democratic Party but neither is the majority of Democrats.


by Hurdy Gurdy on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 12:19:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

i agree, but let's understand the terms... (none / 0)

and the first thing is equality.  the netroots, the anti-war democrats, deserve an equal place at the table.  this is the minimum requirement for democrats to demand unconditional loyalty.  the fact is that progressives still don't have equal status or equal influence.  and that's more true with hillary than the party.  unity requires more of the traditional power structure -- because it requires that they let us in -- than it requires from us...


"I believe he can win. If he runs a campaign anywhere like the terrific campaign he ran to get the nomination, he'll win handily." - Ed Rendell
by bored now on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 09:41:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i agree, but let's understand the terms... (none / 0)

I think her comment last April, "It's a free country. People can vote for me or vote for somebody else" pretty much let progressives know it was going to be her way or the highway.  She dealt with that issue early in the campaign and has never looked back and anyone who thinks otherwise is just kidding themselves.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 09:48:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

absolutely, which makes it both ironic and kinda.. (none / 0)

idiotic for hillary's supporters to start demanding loyalty...


"I believe he can win. If he runs a campaign anywhere like the terrific campaign he ran to get the nomination, he'll win handily." - Ed Rendell
by bored now on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 11:17:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i agree, but let's understand the terms... (none / 0)

She has made it very clear by her appearance at YearlyKos that the netroots and the anti-war democrats has an equal place at her table.  I clearly heard her asking for a partnership with the netroots for the fights that we will face in the future.  She extended a hand of friendship to the netroots despite their hatred and vitriol agains er.


by Hurdy Gurdy on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 10:07:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i agree, but let's understand the terms... (none / 0)

typo... should read vitriol against her.


by Hurdy Gurdy on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 10:15:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

i happen to agree that hillary has reached out... (none / 0)

to the netroots.  but let's not call her attempts a seat at the table, or even approaching equality.  as holden put it, this is an insider who's leary of outsiders.  we aren't part of the clinton coalition, and we're supposed to be thrilled to just be mentioned in the same paragraph as her...


"I believe he can win. If he runs a campaign anywhere like the terrific campaign he ran to get the nomination, he'll win handily." - Ed Rendell
by bored now on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 11:20:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama launches his major offensive ... (none / 0)

Donna Brazile is a B-Rock surrogate.


by hwc on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 07:44:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

really??? (none / 0)


"I believe he can win. If he runs a campaign anywhere like the terrific campaign he ran to get the nomination, he'll win handily." - Ed Rendell
by bored now on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 09:38:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

hey I say give it to Edwards (none / 0)

let him win one.

But, then we'd still win.

This chessboard aint as complicated as you believe it to be.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 10:07:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why does B-Rock keep lying? (2.00 / 1)

The vote to authorize the war in Congress was less than ten days away and I was a candidate for the United States Senate.

Why does B-Rock keep lying about this?

In October 2002, he was a candidate for re-election to his part-time office in the Illinois State Senate.

He did not run for the US Senate until 2004. He announced his candidacy sometime in late 2003 for the March 2004 primary.


by hwc on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 05:10:53 PM EST

why are you "lying"??? (none / 0)

obama told a large crowd of constituents at the university of chicago that he hoped to run for the u.s. senate against peter fitzgerald in may 2002.  people in his district knew what his plans were.  people in chicago knew what his plans were.

everybody who needed to know knew.  it's a stark contrast with how hillary has operated...


"I believe he can win. If he runs a campaign anywhere like the terrific campaign he ran to get the nomination, he'll win handily." - Ed Rendell
by bored now on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 09:37:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama (none / 0)

This is just the wrong strategy to win, in my opinion.  We'll see if it works for him but people are tired of the "blame" game- I just don't see it being effective- it hasn't so far.  But I'm not sure what he could replace it with so I guess it's better than nothing.


NY TIMES ENDORSEMENT: "Mrs. Clinton is more qualified, right now, to be president.... She would be a strong commander in chief."
by reasonwarrior on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 05:31:35 PM EST

Re: Obama launches his major offensive against Hil (none / 0)

Looks like he is running for President of the Netroots rather than President of the United States...


by SaveElmer on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 05:36:24 PM EST

Re: Obama launches his major offensive against Hil (2.00 / 2)

As far as I am concerned Senator Obama's stance on this issue, and many others, his well chosen words and his respectful but firm opposition to the politically motivated positions and electorally driven statements of Hillary are exactly what I hope for and expect from a candidate who has my unequivocal and loyal support.  He is saying and doing all the right things, for me, and apparently for many others.

If the electorate can't see the impeccable logic of what he is saying or the virtue and integrity he is maintaining in his delivery it is their loss, and a further lesson in how far we have strayed from good sense and clear memories.  I would be disappointed if his tactics changed at this point and I consider it a litmus test for the US public.  Either they are ready and deserving of a leader with such excellent qualities or they are not.  It is as simple as that.  I would be loathe to see any significant shift in his position for the sake of pandering to public perceptions.  Senator Obama's dignity and good will are among his greatest assets and if that is not sufficient, along with his obvious intelligence and loyalty to progressive causes, for him to win the support of enough Democrats to defeat Hillary in the primary the loss is ours, not his.

At this point I am still expecting that the electorate will realise the opportunity they are being offered to 'turn the page' as he says.  I have more faith in the good and common sense of the electorate than any part of the political establishment, I just wish there were fewer people trying to thwart him and corrupt his message for their own motives that have nothing to do with our collective best interests.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 05:37:57 PM EST

As Manuel Might Rightly Wonder (none / 0)

¿Que?


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 07:05:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama launches his major offensive against Hil (none / 0)

Shaun, are you suggesting that if the American people don't have the good sense to understand and agree with Barack Obama, then the fault is theirs and they don't deserve him?  That seems like an incredibly cynical thing to say.  In understand the viewpoint, but it just bugs me when people tell me dumb the American people are.  Am I misunderstanding you?


Yes, I am a Clintonista for Obama.
by Denny Crane on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 11:56:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama launches his major offensive against Hil (2.00 / 1)

It's not a matter of dumb or not.  For once I have a candidate who says almost exactly the things I would say, although better than I could say it.  Who takes positions on things for which he is criticised which I fell are relevant, innovative or long overdue.  His approach to partisanship, politics, ethics and reform all seem to me timely, credible and sensible.  I like the fact he thinks about what he is saying while he is saying it, understanding the gravity of his own words and how they may affect people's lives and balancing what he knows people want to hear with what is achievable or truthful.

I have learned from blogging here that support is largely founded on the belief systems people hold already, much of our politics is based on that, and Obama is asking us to stop and listen to his position with an open mind and an active awareness.  I have not been disappointed, but others are.  The criticisms of him along the lines of 'empty suit' or 'boring' suggest to me that he is not hitting the dog-whistle pitches that people expect or are accustomed to.  OK, I can accept that, but I don't understand it, really.  If this guy comes along and asks us to listen for once and we can't or won't do it in sufficient numbers to get him nominated than so be it.  I don't want him to change his style, which is essentially respectful of our wisdom and good intentions.  There are apparently plenty of people who do get it, myself among them.  If Obama doesn't make it this time around, and I am nowhere near conceding that yet,  perhaps he will have created the beginnings for the next time, or the next politician, who has enough faith in our common sense and goodwill to firmly and consistently declare him or herself for intelligent, compassionate, sensible politics which seeks to unite rather than divide, to persuade rather than combat, to lead rather than to leverage.  I certainly hope so.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 12:56:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama launches his major offensive against Hillary (2.00 / 0)



I glad to see Obama finally taking control of the terms of the debate.

For 6 months, the media has let Hillary Clinton slither away from any accountability for her flip-flops on foreign policy as she bends like a weathervane to suit whatever NeoCons, consultants, and DC-based-poll-tested cues tell her to do.

Clinton's judgement on foreign policy has been perpetually wrong now for 7 years (as well as dishonest) and what is clearly apparant by her flip-flops, her follow-the-herd smallness, and have-it-both-ways tactics are a total lack of any high purpose.

Like Bill Clinton who just clung-on for dear life to his Office, but never actually used his platform to advance progressive thought and progressive ideology, she is just concerned with the game of personal ambition and least-path-of-resistence.

Flip-flops...War in Iraq...War in Iran...Torture...corrupt finances from Hsu....etc

Hillary Clinton has no prinicples.
Hillary Clinton has no core values.
Hillary Clinton is a follower and cannot lead.

It's about time Obama makes that case clear and shows Democrats that there is a real choice in this election.

After 7 years of failure, it is time for someone who has decent judgement and who can be believed.



For a "surge" in Truth:  Say NO to NeoCons!!!
by DerekLarsson on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 06:04:23 PM EST

for whatever reason (2.00 / 1)

he seems reluctant to take the fight to Hillary. He is content to sit back and let others (so far just Edwards) do the heavy lifting.  


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 06:07:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How can he? (2.00 / 1)

Clinton voted for War with Iran, before she voted against it.

Clinton not only voted for the Lieberman-Kyle Iran aggression (that is based on phony propaganda), she also then defended that vote by using false White House talking-points to justify it.


......laughing..........more laughing...
"uhm, my understanding ah of ah, ah the Revolutionary Guard in Iran, is that it is promoting terrorism, it is manufacturering weapons that are used against our troops in Iraq, it is certainly the main ah agent of ah support for Hezbollah and Hamas and 'others'. And in what we voted for today, ah we will have an opportunity to designate it as a 'Terrorist Organization'....."
         -Hillary Clinton, Sept. 26, 2007

See:   http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-gareth- porter/liebermankyl-vs-the-evi_b_66020.h tml
to find out just how wrong (and dishonest) Clinton is once again.

The only thing that Hillary "demanded" was the right to follow Joe Lieberman and the White House off yet another cliff.



For a "surge" in Truth:  Say NO to NeoCons!!!
by DerekLarsson on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 06:43:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How can he? (none / 0)

He was campaigning (on the road).



For a "surge" in Truth:  Say NO to NeoCons!!!
by DerekLarsson on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 06:52:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How can he? (none / 0)

But, let me guess?

He would have voted against it if he had been in the Senate, right?

Yeah. I figured as much. His next book should be called the Audicity of Convenience.


by hwc on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 07:47:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How can he? (none / 0)

And just what job has Hillary done, besides enabling and facilitating the Bush-Cheney administration every step of the way to create War?

She even spreads their War propaganda talking-points for them.

Obama did not vote yes, and disagreed with Lieberman-Kyl.  

That makes him far ahead of where Hillary is.



For a "surge" in Truth:  Say NO to NeoCons!!!
by DerekLarsson on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 09:09:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

illinoisians don't mind. they love their senators (none / 0)

so much so that one (durbin) pushed the other (obama) into running for president.  they have illinois' back.

so what's your problem?  oh, yeah, hillary hasn't been anointed  yet...


"I believe he can win. If he runs a campaign anywhere like the terrific campaign he ran to get the nomination, he'll win handily." - Ed Rendell
by bored now on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 09:03:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How can he? (none / 0)

Who gives a shit why Obama did or didn't do this or that? What does that have to do with Hillary voting for the Lieberman resolution? Oh, I get it, it's a nice little diversion so you can can keep people from realizing Hillary supported Joe Lieberman and his march to war once again.


by Freaky Thirsty on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 08:52:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How can he? (2.00 / 1)

Did you read the thread, or are you just here to Hillary bash?  The conversation was about what Obama should or should not do with regard to Hillary Clinton. If someone suggests that Obama should critique Hillary for her vote on the amendment, then it's entirely reasonable to note that Obama wasn't even there for the vote.


Yes, I am a Clintonista for Obama.
by Denny Crane on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 12:00:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

no principles...no values... (none / 0)

what the F is WRONG with people like you?

Qhat are you gonna do if millions and millions of Dems choose her?

Your casual lines insult all of these people.

Will you vote Dem?

Will you vote Nader?

With those kind of attacks - you owe us a description of wgere YOU will be if she is our chose no,inee.

Will you just leave us after you slash and burn our most popular Dem?


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 07:42:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: no principles...no values... (2.00 / 1)

We have every right to object to and fight against the nomination of Hillary Clinton. If you don't understand that you don't understand our party or our Democracy. The fact that you suggest that someone opposing her nomination isn't a Democrat is problematic to me.


by Freaky Thirsty on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 08:49:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]